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Delphi Mac Digest Wednesday, 15 October 1986 Volume 2 : Issue -52 Today's Topics: Finder 5.4 RE: HyperDrive FX/20 (Re: Msg 13710) (2 messages) Scrolling (2 messages) Point in Oval (3 messages) Re: SCSI hard disks RE: Radius FPD (Re: Msg 13695) (2 messages) text editing (3 messages) Stack Size (7 messages) RE: Point in Ovel (Re: Msg 859) OASIS 1.2,WayStation HyperDrive 2000 (5 messages) Motorola et al (2 messages) C&S N/CSN&Y (2 messages) RE: Graphics Magician TurboCharger problems PostScript Escape Font ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MACMAG (13715) Subject: Finder 5.4 Date: 12-OCT 01:52 Business Mac Finder 5.4 -=-=-=-=-= A new Finder is on it's way and we managed to play around with it a bit. This version is very similar to the old one except for a ffew points. First, the about box now says: The Macintosh Finder, based on a novel by -Bruce Horn ... etc. (cute) The trashcan is different. When you put something in the can, you will now see a little handle comming out of it. When you empty the trash, it disapears. This allows you to quickly see if anything is in there. Get info boxes have been modified. They are now much smaller and use Geneva 9 to display the info. The lock/unlock mechanism is at the upper-right hand corner of the box, beside a small locked icon. Folders have the old rounded-corner look and in the folder label piece: this label piece can contain three dots like so: ... ( We figure that this may be used to find the "blessed" folder ) Last but not least, you can set attributes to the various on-line volumes. These attributes are practical when used with file servers. You can make a volume readable only (for example). And if that wasn't all, they have just modified the control panel! It is now a sort of "control-panel-construction set". Each control panel function is kept on disk in a separate file. Each file contains a particular setting. You only keep the files you need or want. One is for the sound -(volume setting) another is for the mouse (tracking, double-click speed, or tablet setting), and there's one for your keyboard settings. If no files are present on disk, you get a message saying: "you're out of control!) Anyways, more previews as they come. Richard Brandow MacMag (the fastest information in the old West).... although we're actually located in the North East! ------------------------------ From: BRECHER (13721) Subject: RE: HyperDrive FX/20 (Re: Msg 13710) Date: 12-OCT 05:13 Hardware & Peripherals It looks as if you know a lot more about the FX/20 than I do! All I can -really say is that I know of no hidden "gotchas" that should prevent you from -carrying any of the three (DataFrame, HyperDrive, MicahDrive). Note that I'm told that MICAH is currently pondering whether the 30 XT will be offered, i.e., whether the line should be limited for now to the 30 AT and the 60 XT. They have some doubt as to whether the market will pay a $200-$300 premium for an extra 10MB and the other features (speed, sector tags, dynamic defect management, etc) in a segment that seems extremely price-conscious. They can't sell it for less and make money, so it's not just a question of dropping the price. I'm hoping the 30 XT will be offered, if for no other reason than I have friends who are waiting for it. BTW, if it *is* offered, DiskTimer results should be about 8.9, 8.9, 2.9 (without tags; tags will be optional at format time. Don't have results w/tags yet). The 30 AT transfer figures are a tad faster, same access time. 60 XT same as 30 XT except 1.9 on seek test. ------------------------------ From: MACINTOUCH (13728) Subject: RE: HyperDrive FX/20 (Re: Msg 13721) Date: 12-OCT 11:59 Hardware & Peripherals We're currently evaluating a HyperDrive FX/20. I find it quiet, and I'm sensitive to noise. It _is_ big, which seems like the largest disadvantage to me. It has a nice set of basic utilities and a unique software-settable SCSI address. This, combined with its external SCSI termination, makes it a good choice for multiple SCSI-drive setups. I expect the drive to be quite reliable. It uses a Seagate hard disk, and early results from techniciansI know indicate no failures. I am disappointed about the price and the short warranty, but I expect this to be a solid unit. Ric Ford ------------------------------ From: BRUSSES (851) Subject: Scrolling Date: 11-OCT 23:02 Current Discussions I have a couple of questions having to do with scrolling. Currently, my scrolling routines are based on an article Larry Rosenstein wrote for -the first issue of MacDeveloper. For the most part, they seem to work properly, except for the following things: * Edit records don't seem to scroll properly: At the moment, I have several edit records on the screen. For the sake of argument, let's make one of these records the active edit record. When I scroll the window, the text of the edit record moves correctly but, the mark remains in the same place. What am I forgetting to do? * Scrolling the text outside the clipping rectangle sometimes produces strange results: For example, let's say my routine scrolls an edit record which contains "Hello, world..." outside of the clipping rectangle. When I scroll the record back, I'll see things like "Heello, world..." on the screen. (I have a feeling that this one is related to the previous problem.) * At times, the scroll bars don't update correctly: This usually happens when the mouse-down occurs in the buttons or page area of my scroll bar. Usually, one of the arrows will remain black, and the thumb will move partially. Any help will be appreciated! (In other words, I've been trying to make this work for several days now, and it's ovbious to me that I've painted -myself into a corner.) Thanks, Bob ------------------------------ From: DDUNHAM (861) Subject: RE: Scrolling (Re: Msg 851) Date: 13-OCT 21:15 Current Discussions If scrolling is doing something to scroll bars, it's probably because the origin is not (0,0) when the scroll bars are being drawn. ------------------------------ From: SBOAG (852) Subject: Point in Oval Date: 12-OCT 16:17 Programming Techniques I am a beginning C programer (Lightspeed) who is trying to write a object-oriented drawing program just for fun. Things have been going pretty good in the begining stages. I can draw a box, rectangle, and line and store them as objects and move the rects around on the screen with the mouse. A couple of questions I was hopeing someone might be able to help me with: 1. does anyone know the formula for finding if a point is in a oval? 2. is there any examples running around that implements a pattern menu, such as in Macdraw or MacDraft? 3. Is there any example programs that are running around that implement object oriented graphics? My main questions are with storage. Presently I have the actual objects stored in one sequential list. this will obviously give me problems later on with deletion and with growth of variable-sized objects. The best system would seem to be a sequential list of handles to the objects, so that the objects are left floating around and the memory-manager would take care of house keeping. Any ideas on implementation? Am i on the right track? Thanks Scott Boag ------------------------------ From: PEABO (853) Subject: RE: Point in Oval (Re: Msg 852) Date: 12-OCT 16:59 Programming Techniques Ah ... PtInOval! This reminds me of analytic geometry in school ... yes! There's an old trick for drawing ellipses: you take a string, a pencil and -two pins, stick the pins into the paper at the foci of the ellipse, knot the -string into a loop somewhat larger than required to fit around the pins, and draw -the string taut around the pins and the pencil point by pulling the pencil point -as far away as it will go. Keeping it taut, you start moving the pencil in an -arc and it will trace out the ellipse. This is based on the principle that the sum of the distance between each -focus and the point on the ellipse is constant. Therefore you can tell if a point -is inside or outside by computing the distance between the point and each focus, adding these up and comparing against the similar sum for any point on the ellipse. The problem then is to find the foci, since you probably have specified the ellipse in terms of its major and minor axes. The sum of the distances from any point to the foci is the same as the length of the major axis. This is easy to prove by examining the situation where the point is the intersection of the major axis with the ellipse. The obvious thing to do then is to look at the intersection of the minor axis with the ellipse. If we represent the length of the major axis as A and the minor axis as B and the distance from the center of the ellipse to one of the foci as E, then we know that there is a right triangle connecting the minor axis intersection, the center, and the focus, and the hypoteneuse of the triangle is one half the length of the major axis, so E**2 = (A/2)**2 - (B/2)**2. That's all you need to know. Too bad the other part of your question isn't so easy! peter ------------------------------ From: DDUNHAM (862) Subject: RE: Point in Ovel (Re: Msg 853) Date: 13-OCT 21:16 Programming Techniques Gosh, that sounds like work. Why not just make an oval region and do a PtInRgn() call? ------------------------------ From: BRECHER (13758) Subject: Re: SCSI hard disks Date: 12-OCT 23:49 MUGS Online to: news@cit-vax.Caltech.Edu (Usenet netnews) Subject: SCSI hard disks > Does anyone know what brand of drive is used for the major > SCSI disc drives. i.e dataframe, Apple etc.. > I would especially like to know what drive apple uses since > their drive is said to support filetags. File tag support is a function of the controller rather than of the drive itself. The Apple HD20SC uses a Seagate 225N with embedded controller; it probably has custom ROMs to support tags. It does support tags, 'though -Apple has indicated that tags will probably not be supported by future products. ------------------------------ From: DDUNHAM (13770) Subject: RE: Radius FPD (Re: Msg 13695) Date: 13-OCT 03:16 Hardware & Peripherals The stuff we got from Radius in Boston is incorrect; Andy told me it's out of date because he had to move the globals (up by 32K) to keep them from getting overwritten by some applications. BTW, I think Andy will be patching TMON to do just what you suggest: run the debugger on the Mac screen and the program on the Radius. The oddest thing about running a debugger is that I keep reaching to the left of the Radius screen to press the interrupt button. There are indeed some cases when it's slower using the Radius, because you are drawing more stuff (e.g. PageMaker, which does a lot of extra drawing -- it's a lot worse now). But overall I think things are faster, because you get a lot fewer update events from bringing a new window to the front, and you scroll less often. ------------------------------ From: DDUNHAM (13783) Subject: RE: Radius FPD (Re: Msg 13779) Date: 13-OCT 21:11 Hardware & Peripherals As far as I know, Radius FPD won't work with other stuff that attaches to the 68000. ------------------------------ From: AUTHORS (854) Subject: text editing Date: 12-OCT 21:43 Developers' Corner peabo, Thanks for answering my query about text editing. Just to respond, I never heard that MacWrite 4.5 limits the number of paragraphs in a document, as you say. Both old and new versions do limit the number of characters per paragraph--in the old version, two words of data prefaced each paragraph. The first, I believe, pointed to the end of the formatting information for that paragraph, and the second--the word immediately preceding the text itself-- represented the length of the text, *plus* the length data itself. I think the new version does something similar. You seem to suggest that while MacWrite 4.5 segments text read into -memory by paragraph, 2.2 did not. Not so: both versions use that strategy, I think. What would happen if a long document were in memory, and the application had -to lock a handle or read in code? Pretty tough for the memory manager to shift forty or fifty pages around. Even the best-managed heaps have an immovable block that occasionally isn't neatly at the beginning or end. When the mouse moves the insertion point, the old (2.2) application -called sethandlesize twice, presumably to divide according to the insertion point. That way, the application could more easily handle only the text which -actually needs to be manipulated (that is, ahead of the insertion point). If the text were in one large block, it could take quite a while to add a character in -the middle of a long doc. If it's true, as you say, that 4.5 is limited as to number of paragraphs, it isn't because the old MacWrite did not segment. What happens when a character is actually typed is, I think, the interesting (and nontrivial) question. How does the application respond, for instance, when o when only one or a few characters lie behind the insertion point--or for that matter ahead of it? Does the application try to gather that small segment into a larger one, providing the length limit is not exceeded? Incidentally, the number of sethandlesizes is more than one would expect, when a character is typed. I've looked at MacWrite with Macsbug, but not studied it all that carefully. To conclude: an interesting (and presently lacking)( area for the data- bases would be text editing-- more important than some things on there now. Designing a good editor, and handling (no pung, I guess) ythe memory implementation of the Mac is challenging. Also, the increased memory of -newer machines should change some views on disk-based design. Alex S ------------------------------ From: PEABO (857) Subject: RE: text editing (Re: Msg 854) Date: 13-OCT 00:00 Developers' Corner True, I hadn't thought about what MW 2.2 did with the document in memory. It may have had some limitations too (on number of paragraphs). The 4.5 version allows a max on 450 para's on a 128K Mac and about 2000 on a 512K, if I -recall. I'd like to see something more in the way of text editing tools. For example, even without having full attributes, a very useful application would be TE with some way of bolding or underlining words. There might be a way to hack the underlining using one of the hooks, but bolding changes the width of characters, so I think you wind up writing your own routines. peter ------------------------------ From: DDUNHAM (863) Subject: RE: text editing (Re: Msg 857) Date: 13-OCT 21:16 Developers' Corner Bolding doesn't always change the width of characters...check out Palatino Bold. ------------------------------ From: HPP (855) Subject: Stack Size Date: 12-OCT 22:21 Programming Techniques How does one control stack size? MinStack and/or DefltStack seem to, but -what is the proper way to do it? ------------------------------ From: HPP (856) Subject: RE: Stack Size (Re: Msg 855) Date: 12-OCT 22:34 Programming Techniques As far as I can psych out from IM(1/2/3+4) the difference between HeapEnd and BufPtr (or CurStakBase) is the max room for stack expansion. If an APPL knows it will need a certain amount ( in my case more than default) you get into one of those chicken vs. egg situations..where after you are running its too late.. or is it? Is there a commented listing of 128KROM available? Perhaps from Apple? With a Cross-Ref to globals.. Then one could perhaps figure out answers to such questions. ~Phil ------------------------------ From: PEABO (858) Subject: RE: Stack Size (Re: Msg 856) Date: 13-OCT 00:02 Programming Techniques If you want to set the stack size, do it BEFORE letting the heap expand, -since there is nothing you can do once the heap gets into the area you need for -stack expansion. peter ------------------------------ From: LOGICHACK (866) Subject: RE: Stack Size (Re: Msg 858) Date: 13-OCT 23:01 Programming Techniques But I thought the new ROM segment loader expanded the heap to maximum size -and then put your preload CODE segments up high in the heap. Is there a clean solution to this or do we have to do something like relaunching the program after setting up the proper globals. This is the way to handle use of the second video page. I'd like to increase the stack size in a MacApp application. Maybe there's -an easier way... Paul :) ------------------------------ From: BRECHER (868) Subject: RE: Stack Size (Re: Msg 866) Date: 14-OCT 03:52 Programming Techniques The segment loader does NOT expand the heap. ------------------------------ From: PEABO (869) Subject: RE: Stack Size (Re: Msg 866) Date: 14-OCT 11:53 Programming Techniques I don't think it does ... but perhaps I should check. I was experimenting -with a little hack to preload all my segments at run time for ease of debugging, *and* do a MoveHHi on them, and I could swear I wound up with some stuff in -the middle during one of my tests. This was with the new ROMs. peter ------------------------------ From: JEFFS (870) Subject: RE: Stack Size (Re: Msg 869) Date: 14-OCT 20:08 Programming Techniques According to "How to Write Macintosh Software", if you want more stack, all -you have to do is set the global ApplLimit to a lower value. This needs to be -done *before* you call MaxApplZone (if you do) and before you use much heap space. Jeff ------------------------------ From: PEABO (860) Subject: RE: Point in Ovel (Re: Msg 859) Date: 13-OCT 15:31 Programming Techniques You can probably get away without doing any floating point, by being very attentive to how you do the square roots. The real trick would be to figure out some way to avoid even doing the square roots. Something that just occurred to me is that you are asking a topological question, not a geometric one. Since an ellipse is topologically equivalent to a circle, and in fact can be stretched to form a circle, the real way to solve this problem is vastly easier: just scale the coordinate system so that the minor axis is the same as the major axis. Then the ellipse is a circle, and you don't have to compute any square roots!! peter ------------------------------ From: RAMARREN (13807) Subject: OASIS 1.2,WayStation Date: 14-OCT 04:17 Mousing Around reading all the comments on Oasis and WayStation has sparked an interest in researching usage of the DeskTop metaphor. The topic of visual organization, how all of us are setting up our machines, reminds me of a couple of articles I once read in the psychology journals relating to differentiation of non- uniform objects. Anyone interested in contributing notes on their setups/visual structures? As for Oasis and WayStation: I have two Mac's, one is a 512K HyperDrive 20 machine, old ROMs that I use at work. There, about 60-80% of my time is spent in Versaterm and Helix, with the remainder split between Word, various Paint programs, MacDraw and MEdit. A modified version of WayStation (as per Steve Riggins article in the LA Mac Group newsletter) with the Finder renamed and WayStation on the Desktop (named Finder) works great in that MFS environment. Oasis, of course, doesn't work without the new ROMs; I would use it there if it did as I am often opening up the same database file from Helix all the time. The speed is great, the DA's work so a few utility DA's take care of the usual rename and delete functions, and a MockWrite/NotePad+/miniWriter DA is perfect. At home, I have been trying to figure out a reasonable scheme for one or the other of these programs, but they just don't cut it. I do too many spurious things, like talk to BBS and VAXen, then do a bit of picture digitizing and colorizing,then some programming, etc. This machine has 128K ROMs and a MacMemory board, so I set the cache to 768K usually and the Finder flies. When I'm programming, the MEdit Transfer menu is great and suitably quick. On the basis of the above, I've removed both products from my disk here as being a waste of space and inappropriate to my needs. so much for my two cents. gdg:: October 14, 1986 "free advice is usually worth what you pay." ------------------------------ From: MACINTOUCH (13819) Subject: HyperDrive 2000 Date: 14-OCT 21:09 Hardware & Peripherals You know, I've been using this thing full-time for a few days, and it's starting to get kinda addicting. The speed is real nice ... Ric ------------------------------ From: HSTARR (13821) Subject: RE: HyperDrive 2000 (Re: Msg 13819) Date: 14-OCT 21:24 Hardware & Peripherals However -- my Hyperr 2000 died (or not quite, had a startup problem) within -the first week. It turned out to be a cable, of all things. GCC still can't crack it with me -- Every Hyper I have has had at least one failure in the first week, and two have had new controllers. I am also sick of the support people asking me if I have run the disk test, etc. ------------------------------ From: HSTARR (13822) Subject: RE: HyperDrive 2000 (Re: Msg 13819) Date: 14-OCT 21:28 Hardware & Peripherals I was talking to Bill Duval at Consulair today -- his Direct Acccess C -compiler for the Hyper won't be done till next year. He is currently working on a C -for the II/gs, after finishing the Prodigy compiler. Wow! the Prodigy turns in over 600,000 whetstones whereas the Hyper is only -48, 000 (with SANE intercept). I don't know about Absoft - they have a $495 MacFortran/020 package which -has a 68020/68881 run time library. They ssem to be busy on Amiga, Atari versions -of the compiler. ------------------------------ From: MACINTOUCH (13847) Subject: RE: HyperDrive 2000 (Re: Msg 13843) Date: 15-OCT 19:57 Hardware & Peripherals Harry, Thanks for the tip on Macsbug. I appreciate it. (For you other -folks, putting Macsbug in the Startup drawer (System folder) makes the HyperDrive freeze on startup, rendering it useless until you boot off floppy and remove Macsbug.) I gave Tmon a quick test, and HeapShow. Both seemed to work fine on the -2000. Have you noticed any other problems?? Ric ------------------------------ From: HSTARR (13855) Subject: RE: HyperDrive 2000 (Re: Msg 13847) Date: 15-OCT 21:34 Hardware & Peripherals Ric -- Tempo v1.1 is a no-no. It will install OK, but on first invokation, la bomba supreme! I have noticed from Nosy'ing the Hyper "idinit", that it does extensive -memory reconfiguration, including moving screen contents (you did notice that little flick during boot, didn't you), and patching certain 68000 vectors in low memory. This is probably why there are problems with these things (MacsBug, Tempo et al). However, there seems to be special case code for MacsBug. I use Macsbug 5.3, and the only problem I have encountered is that the debuggers screen is all screwed up, on initial entry. I suspect that maybe if one reassigns Tempo's Init after that of the Hyper, then maybe it would run. To be continued.... ------------------------------ From: HSTARR (13823) Subject: Motorola et al Date: 14-OCT 21:30 Hardware & Peripherals Does any one know where I can obtain literature on the WHOLE 68000 family, -from the 68008 to 68030, in summary and full details, including the peripheral -chips and FP/68881 and MMU/68851 etc???? I am looking for names and phone numbers and/or contacts Thanks -- Harry ------------------------------ From: PEABO (13828) Subject: RE: Motorola et al (Re: Msg 13823) Date: 14-OCT 22:10 Hardware & Peripherals The handiest item I have here is the 68010/68012 Advance Information sheet -- I say sheet because it's technically called a data sheet but actually a 10 chapter booklet. It says 3501 Ed Bluestein Blvd, Autin TX 78721. Try badgering your local Motorola rep. peter ------------------------------ From: MOUSEKETEER (13830) Subject: C&S N/CSN&Y Date: 14-OCT 22:28 Mousing Around This week's Computer + Software News reports that Apple has just privately unveiled it's new ad series, the first public viewing to take place during the first game of the World Series (Boston Red Sox vs. Houston Astros, of course ;-)). The new theme is "The Power to Be Your Best" and features Graham Nash singing a new version of "Teach Your Children Well". Gene Siskel, who viewed the private showing of the new commercials said, "It lays a gentle guilt trip on any parent who doesn't teach his children well." Rumors are circulating that in retaliation Atari has hired Steven Stills to sing "Our Mouse, is a very very very fine mouse (fine mouse), with two buttons not one...", while Commodore has penned a contract with Neil Young, and will have their own song, "Don't You Know You're Typing on the Amiga Express" out as soon as they find out what key Neil actually sings in. Not to be out done, IBM is said to have David Crosby working in a Southern CA studio on "Suite: Truly Blue Buys". ;-) Alf ------------------------------ From: PEABO (13835) Subject: RE: C&S N/CSN&Y (Re: Msg 13830) Date: 15-OCT 01:11 Mousing Around Oh my aching head! Seriously though, that wasn't the first public unveiling -- the commercials were shown at the Apple User Group briefings in the middle of September. peter ------------------------------ From: MACINTOUCH (13846) Subject: RE: Graphics Magician Date: 15-OCT 19:43 Network Digests To: bill@hao.UUCP (Bill Roberts) Subject: Graphics Magician MacroMind, developers of VideoWorks, are supposed to have animation kits for developers who want to do animation in their own applications. If they actuallyare selling such a thing, it's probably the best available. MacroMind, 1028 W. Wolfram St., Chicago, IL 60657; 312-871-0987. Ric Ford ------------------------------ From: MACINTOUCH (13848) Subject: TurboCharger problems Date: 15-OCT 19:59 Bugs & Features I've had a lot of trouble with freezes and such running TurboCharger 2.0 and using the Quick Quit option. It seems to be working OK with that turned off, and I recommend staying away from it unless you're in an adventurous mood. Ric Ford ------------------------------ From: MADMACS (13854) Subject: PostScript Escape Font Date: 15-OCT 21:26 Business Mac Does anyone have information regarding the PostScript escape font? I would like to ad PostScript program fragments to files created in Mac applications but would like to avoid having to do a command-F and then edit the file. BTW, I have written a word that makes the black to gray screen seen in the PS cookbook. I am working on making it smoother to use, but let me know if you w would like me to post it here. -Doug Wood (MADMACS) ------------------------------